The Marketer's Most Valuable Perspective

Mike:
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of MVP, The Marketer’s Most Valuable Perspective; a podcast by Dear Storyteller and State of Social. My name is Mike Drysdale, I’m your host. I am the General Manager of Dear Storyteller, and we are recording live at Optus Stadium at State of Social 2022. And for the next 20 minutes, we are going to be deep diving into the most valuable perspectives of none other than Holly Ludeman. Holly, welcome to the show.

Holly:
Thank you.

Mike:
I had the pleasure of sitting down and watching your talk yesterday. It is a journey that I am familiar with, naturally; kind of got to ‘state your bias’ or something like that at the beginning of a podcast. Holly, you did a lot of your work with the Livestock Collective, which is what it was called back then. Is it? It’s changed its name now, right?

Holly:
We’re still the Livestock Collective.

Mike:
Okay. We’re in the process.

Holly:
Yeah.

Mike:
But you did a lot of that work with Dear Storyteller’s sister agency, Lush – the Content Agency. And at the time, it came out of a fundamental need. It was not a nice to have; it was almost an existential crisis.

Holly:
Absolutely a crisis event that drove my passion for animal welfare. I’m a veterinarian, let’s put that out there. I’m not a marketer or a social media expert at all. So yeah, this is a really different event for me to be at; a really different audience to talk to. But I think there are learnings from what we did with Lush and other consultants that are really valuable for other people in this space to hear.

Mike:
And something that strikes me about the tact that you took with this from the get-go, was that it was almost a little bit non-interventionalist. In the sense that you may not naturally be a marketer – or a branding person, or a social media person, or what have you – but you have managed to turn into a storyteller, and you have told the story of the Livestock Collective by turning on the cameras. You talked about it in the sense of, there was a void of information. Something that I think is really interesting about what you did, was that the content that you captured; there was no steering. That was awfully hands on; like ‘let’s show you this, let’s show you that’. It was very much like, ‘do less, just show’. Just turn on the cameras, roll, and let the story-

Holly:
Tell itself.

Mike:
… take care of itself. Yeah.

Holly:
I think even just that first blog I did, that care and that passion comes through in agricultural people. You don’t need to get them to say what you want them to say. You just need to ask them the right questions. Like I said; I’m a scientist and an academic, and I love data, but that passion to be able to share information has been ignited through this process. And then getting other people to do that has been really inspiring. Just asking a truck driver and a shearer, ‘just tell me why you do what you do? Why you care about what you do?’

That really resonated with the audience; there was no information available, so it was pretty easy to fill that void. But also now, like you said; “Turn the cameras on.” An open book can’t be rewritten, whereas at the time of starting this project, the book had been written for us; and it was awful.

Mike:
I think that’s such a fascinating point to pass, because it’s something that we’ve come up with time and time again; where we’ve talked to clients – and one specific client that I can think of – where there’s a conversation around water cooler chatter. This was a cultural conversation that we were having, and the idea was that it’s like, ‘well, if people are talking, they’re just being commercially immature. They just don’t understand the pressure of why we can’t share with them the information that we’re sharing with them.’

I asked him, are you sharing all the information that you can? Because at the end of the day, those conversations are going to happen, and they are happening. The only difference is that you don’t have a voice.

Holly:
You can be part of it – or not. And yeah, absolutely, in the agricultural industry, some of these conversations were happening without the industry having a voice, so that’s a really dangerous place to be. And I don’t think it’s authentic if it comes from that industry policy body either.

That’s possibly why this was so effective and had the movement that it created; because it authentically came from grassroots people sharing their stories. And while some of the footage ended up being professional, there were still those real, authentic, personal experiences from people; a truck driver talking about why he does what he does.

Mike:
It’s crazy to me to think that, yes, some of the footage was professional, but then what you did was you taught a man to fish. Probably some people that really know how to fish too, but you bought them in, and you trained them, and you ran workshops with Lush – and others I’m imagining as well – where you got them in the position where they could have their own voice as well. There’s something so fundamental about that. It doesn’t seem like something that is naturally kind of, it’s like, “Oh, who doesn’t know how to post on social media?” Well…

Holly:
Most people.

Mike:
Yeah.

Holly:
I think having the confidence to tell your story, whether it’s around a dinner table, on social media, writing an opinion piece, or talking at a school. I became, through this journey, passionate about empowering the supply chain. As passionate as I was about “I’ve got to create this content, and website, and momentum of the Livestock Collective,” it was also about “Well, I want a thousand of me around the country, and maybe it’ll be 10,000 that have the confidence to share their stories.”

Mike:
And you have created that in some ways, right? Like this agriculture influencer market has almost become a cottage industry. Can you tell me about a couple? I know you mentioned a couple, but talk about what they’ve managed to accomplish in this short space of time.

Holly:
Yeah, there’s a few. I suppose as we do the workshops, and a lot of them might be agriculture influencers or have great followings already, but someone like The Cattleman’s Daughter – she’s from a station up north and had a great following already, but giving her even more confidence. And that brand is beautiful. But she talks about tough things like living in rural regional Australia, like mental health. And then there’s some really fun people like Mandy Matthews who has hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok and shows some really confronting footage. It’s confronting if you’re not part of the AG industry. Seeing lambs being given birth to, seeing everyday practise on the farm; it just really normalises it and makes it fun. I think that kind of links back to Vincenzo, our first speaker; “Make cool shit.” And agriculture can do that.

Mike:
I was literally about to bring him up, because that idea of F1 Drive to Survive – which we saw in the first keynote at State of Social this year – so much of that is that every race car driver became a character, and we suddenly had a level of investment in those characters. We wanted to know where they were going to go next, what they were going to do. And it’s like, for our entire history, Australians have had mythology around the Bushmen, the-

Holly:
The Ned Kellys.

Mike:
… Exactly. Of the world.

Holly:
And that was my passion. I was like, “I want a livestock agent, a truck driver, a shearer to have that personality.” For someone in the city to feel connected to what their jobs are, because they’re these unsung heroes of the bush that make our communities tick.

Mike:
I think outside of the history books, you’ve got movies, you’ve got these scripted character portrayals, actors that have played them, but we haven’t really had straight-up access to these real-life characters in the setting that we’re most used to now, which is real people telling real stories.

Holly:
I really related to that first keynote speaker too about the old school mentality of, “We don’t need to use social media. We don’t need to engage with the young people.”

I mean that I was pulling my hair out with that for years. I was just a veterinarian and a service provider, but could just see that we were so behind in the communication space. I think, after a leadership workshop, you’re right; here I am, this analytical data-driven vet-based person, and my personality type actually puts me as this kind of innovative strategic person. So now I’m doing communication work, I love it, and it’s ignited this passion that I want to do more of. So I suppose out of that crisis, it’s definitely been a personal journey.

Mike:
I love that. It’s also, in doing that, what Eckleston did and some of these old white-haired white men that stood up to you at the beginning and said, “This isn’t going to work. We’re not interested.”

They isolated themselves, and they took themselves out of the conversation. And then I think what really is interesting about that as well – to quote another very well known public figure, Brene Brown – one of my favourite quotes of hers is, “People are hard to hate close-up.” And these guys weren’t close to anyone, so they were easy to hate. But then when you put yourself there, you get vulnerable, you get on camera, you share your story; suddenly you’re a bit closer. It’s a bit harder to go out of hand, black and white.

Holly:
That’s really true. And I think once I was brave, and showed that vulnerability and didn’t ask for permission, and kind of went forward with this project, a lot of those critics that would’ve probably spent too long around the board table thinking about whether to approve this were then the biggest supporters. So I think they were scared. And get on with the legal business. We shouldn’t have to talk to people in the general public. This is a regulated industry that’s legal, but that’s not good enough anymore. I suppose ethical social governance is, and provenance of products is really important to people. I think our election and what the community cares about has shown that.

Mike:
Social licence to operate, right?

Holly:
Absolutely.

Mike:
It’s become an enormous thing.

Holly:
What drives trust and acceptance in an industry – and industries can’t stop listening. They’re constantly looking at that trust wheel going, “What’s next?”

Mike:
A hundred percent. We’re going to jump into our quickfire questions in just a second.

Holly:
Okay.

Mike:
But the one thing that I wanted to ask before we did was, throughout this process, and in your workshop yesterday, you put on the sound of the ticking clock. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Holly:
My nightmare.

Mike:
That sound of “60 Minutes is calling,” or A Current Affair, or what have you.

Holly:
Took me so long to get that sound cut.

Mike:
What’s the process?

Holly:
Well, I was like, how do I download it off YouTube? And I couldn’t do it. So then I had to turn a Zoom on my own and I just recorded it, and then I took the audio… And then I’m not sure if that’s legal?

Mike:
I love it. We won’t tell anyone. It’s fine, but ooh, it’s fine. No, the question that I wanted to ask was, what was the scariest part of all this? Was there a single moment that you could think of where you gritted your teeth the hardest, or you thought, “This is the part where I could just back out. I haven’t fully committed yet.” What was it?

Holly:
I think when I released the first blog after working with Lush, I walked into your office and said, “Just follow me to the Middle East.” And then I released that blog, 200 politicians and media, and then had the biggest media scrum. I was like, “This is the end of my career. This is the end…”

The industry can come and go, but I’m putting myself completely front and centre; and that was petrifying, to say the least. You guys gave me some good skills, so thank you. But I think out of that fear, the people that then stood up beside me were the silver lining. Everyone going, “Yeah. Now we’ll stand strong together.” And we had the Justice League.

Mike:
I just got hairs on the back of my neck. I mean, I thought of Avengers Assemble, so different properties, same feeling. But no, that is really awesome too – sometimes you need a leader, and you need somebody to step out in front of the line and say, “Not on my watch.” And that is a terrifying experience.

Holly:
Oh, yeah.

Mike:
But to have the other people step up – and Avengers Assemble or the Justice League happens.

Holly:
Give them the confidence. And now looking back, that’s bravery – which at the time, I thought was stupidity. But that bravery allowed other people to feel confident to stand stronger together.

Mike:
I love that. What is it like communicating a brand platform that has a very loud opposition?

Holly:
It’s interesting. There are a lot of faceless trolls in the opposition, which I think have just lost traction recently. Maybe it was Covid, or I think that online farm that invaded people’s properties and things; there was then changes in legislation to stop. So I think there’s – coinciding with our growth and authentic sharing activist organisations – well, freedom of speech is absolutely what I believe in, but the way they’ve gone about it hasn’t been as acceptable.

So it’s definitely had its challenges. It’s allowing the people we support to have the skills if they find that challenging, because it is really confronting if you get a young person on social media that then gets attacked by an activist. So we’ve done a lot of work on making sure people have the skills to deal with that themselves as well.

Mike:
One of the good things about communities like Reddit, for instance, is that there is that self-regulating community, right?

Holly:
Yeah.

Mike:
They don’t really stand for at least the violent stuff. It’s like; yes, debate. Yes, information. But when it’s attacks, that’s when…

Holly:
I think we’ve been really clear on that culture that we expect, and now the supply chain comes out to back for everyone. At one point in time, no one would share anything on Twitter. No one put anything on Instagram or that they were even part of the industry. I remember something that impacted me – another veterinarian said they would never even tell other people they worked in the industry. I was like, “No, no, I want to change that. We’re impacting animal welfare around the world. Be proud of it, but call out the things that should be done better and be part of the conversation.”

Mike:
You did make the point as well that you also sometimes police the agriculture side of things as well.

Holly:
Absolutely. Yeah. Uunacceptable behaviour, it doesn’t matter what side it’s on, I think we should call that out. If you wouldn’t have that conversation over the phone or face-to-face, then I don’t think it should be on social media either.

Mike:
Really incredible to have somebody that is willing to be that passion and be that light-bearer and try to say like, “Hey, we’re better than this. This is how we act, this is how we don’t act.” I think that’s pretty special.

Let’s go quickfire. Where do you go to learn more about marketing? I’m going to say marketing, because you are learning about marketing.

Holly:
I thought that was such a dirty word when I started. I’m just going to put it out there. I was like, “Ah, marketing.” Well, I think I’ve gone to the experts. I’ve gone to Lush, I’ve gone to other consultants to go like, “What is the best way to communicate? What platform should we be using?”

I really like that one-on-one. I need someone to explain it to me. Yes, you can Google it or you can go to podcasts or YouTube. But I needed that to understand it myself.

Mike:
That’s really validating for some people. I think that that is part of the process. This is probably one that you can definitely answer because of the agriculture world. What’s a small brand that you love and why?

Holly:
Ooh, so many. I want to go with a non-AG one.

Mike:
Yeah, you can go with a non-AG one.

Holly:
I love, oh, so many. Apple Tree Flat’s a really fun one. She’s a stock woman who’s worked all over the world. She’s vivacious and hilarious. So follow Fi Bed.

Mike:
Fi Bed. Apple Tree Flats.

Holly:
And they do ‘kerchiefs. So in the country, you get this burnt bit on your neck, so you wear the ‘kerchief and you can pull it up when it’s dusty. And she makes shirts and bespoke country wear, but also works on a vessel as a stock woman and works in markets helping with animal welfare.

Mike:
Love that.

Holly:
She’s amazing. But I also have so many.

Mike:
Maybe we’ll get some more later. If you could spend four hours with any marketer, or business person – or I don’t know, I’m going to let you open it up to where your mind wanders – in the world, who would you choose and why?

Holly:
I’m going to go one non-AG. I’m just like, the biggest Camilla fan. I would love to communicate with her marketers.

Mike:
Like Camilla…?

Holly:
The brand, the clothing brand.

Mike:
Right, so the marketers of Camilla. Okay.

Holly:
Yeah, but I mean that is a huge Australian clothing brand. I mean, no woman can have enough Camilla in their wardrobe. And this is completely off-centre from agriculture.

Mike:
I love this Fab Girl moment. No, that’s really cool.

Holly:
She has these out-there patterns and colours – I feel happy when I wear that stuff. I would love to meet her. I mean, her business model has been amazing.

Mike:
Love that. What’s an emerging trend in your industry that you think is going to be highly influential over the next 10 years?

Holly:
I think in agriculture, it’s provenance. I think the next generation – or even now – will want a QR code that tells us where things have come from, how they’ve been made, and what the ESG of those companies is. That trend is not going away; and if you’re not listening to that in whatever food or fibre is being produced, you’ll be left behind.

Mike:
This question is almost tailor-made for you, Holly. Has a major public opinion recently flipped where you felt marketing or communication played a crucial role? Could you maybe just tell us a little bit about the outcomes of the work that you’ve done, what it has achieved?

Holly:
Yeah, I think activist organisations had a lot of power and created huge regulatory, political, public outcry. I think we’ve been able to change the narrative, change the conversation, and allow people to have informed decisions. Take the pressure off political regulatory narratives, and as we said, just open up; turn the cameras on.

Mike:
I like it. Last question. It’s a two-parter. When you think about the term ‘prized possession’, what’s the first branded thing that comes to mind? And just while you’re thinking about that, do you remember a specific ad or piece of marketing that convinced you to buy it?

Holly:
This is probably quintessential agriculture. The R.M. Williams boots are that.

Mike:
Good answer.

Holly:
I got my first pair when I was 21, and I worked so hard to get them. I’ve still got them. I know it’s been bought out and I’m glad that Forest has brought it back to Australia-owned – two years, brought it back. But that’s a really romantic product, and I think it’s just got a link to me, to my uncle in the shearing shed, Dad wearing them. It’s a really romantic memory. And there are those ads that R.M. Williams did that bring that nostalgic country feeling.

Mike:
What did you think about the one with Hugh, just starkers, with just the R.M. Williams boots on? Did you like that one?

Holly:
I did actually. I mean, yeah, they were trying to be a bit quirky and it worked. Can you have enough pairs? That’s the question.

Mike:
Yeah, it was classic. I gotcha. Nothing but RM’s.

Holly, this has been an absolute joy. Thank you for joining us. I know that, as you said, “I’m a vet, I’m a scientist, I’m an expert in these things. This is a new space for me.” I think you’ve handled yourself extremely well. I appreciate you being here and for telling your story. So thanks so much for joining us.

Holly:
Thanks for having me.

Mike:
That is all the time we have left for MVP, The Marketer’s Most Valuable Perspective. Give us a five-star rating, or give us a rating and review on iTunes and Spotify; you choose what the rating is. Tune in next time for MVP, The Marketer’s Most Valuable Perspective, a podcast by State of Social and Dear Storyteller. Thanks guys, see you later.